Pig & Whistle Tales - A World of Warcraft Podcast

World of Warcraft Classic: Balancing Nostalgia and Change Amidst Community Tensions

• Gabriel • Season 4 • Episode 87

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The episode delves into the ongoing debates within the World of Warcraft community, specifically regarding the contentious relationship between Classic and Retail players. It explores themes of nostalgia, player expectations, developer communication, and the nuances of toxicity in gaming culture.

• Analysis of community forums discussing player demands for changes in Classic
• Examination of Blizzard’s communication and engagement with players
• Exploration of toxicity and blame culture among Classic and Retail players
• Discussion on cheating and botting issues impacting Classic gameplay
• Reflections on the nature of gameplay expectations and competitiveness in Classic WoW

Hope you all enjoy and hope you relate to any of these stories. And I will speak to you all in the next episode!

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Speaker 1:

Music. Thank you, hello and welcome to the Pig and Whistle Tales from Azeroth. As always here at the Pig and Whistle Inn in Stormwind, I go for a variety of subjects with regards to World of Warcraft, so grab a bottle or a pint, sit back and enjoy this episode. We'll be going over a few forum posts classic forum posts, I might add and we're going to be dissecting them, saying if they're stupid, wrong, incorrect, perfectly correct. You know smart ideas, bad ideas, all of that in between, but as always, we will start off with the weekly news.

Speaker 1:

Um orta, the broken mountain, is your world boss for the week. He is located within as khet as khet um and he is essentially on the very bottom left. The war within uh dungeons and tbc time walking are your bonus events with this week. This means that you get an extra piece of gear from the war within dungeons as well as tbc time walking. You can go back, experience burning crusade dungeons and buy certain things for time walking badges that can increase your rep for cosmetics, etc.

Speaker 1:

Pomp stomp is your brawl for the week. This is essentially you are 15 versus 15 in an arathi basin and you're going against 15 ais. This, this is a very quick brawl. This will take like five minutes when you get in and this is very much you win the brawl so quickly. It's free honor and do not pass this up if you are out of honor. Essentially, you need this honor For the Mythic Affixes for the week. Oblivion and Tyrannical are your Mythic Affixes. Oblivion is where the orbs are placed around the sort of pack that you're attacking and they all converge into the center and you have to soak them. If you don't soak them, they heal the mobs and give them a damage increase. Very simple and Tyrannical. The bosses and the mobs that they spawn have increased health and damage, so make sure to bring a talent build that can accommodate for that.

Speaker 1:

So out of all of the posts I'm checking, there is two that caught my eye. This is the first one Our beloved vanilla World of Warcraft. Any ideas what this is going to complain about? Everything? I see a bunch of these posts coming from retail players. Okay, how do you know that it's a retail player? Firstly, wanting more and more changes steering Vanilla World of Warcraft away from its original state. I see topics wanting added barbershop and an achievement tab to the anniversary realm, and it blows my mind. I've put many hours into working towards just having a fresh, unchanged vanilla, like we were supposed to have for anniversary realms, in keeping it in the vanilla spirit unchanged, fresh servers after all, that is the reason we wanted vanilla in the first place. Thousands upon thousands of us have signed a petition and waited 15 years to bring back legacy vanilla servers over 230 000 signatures, to be exact. This is one of the last old school feeling mmos out there, thankfully, uh, thankful, to have our era vanilla server.

Speaker 1:

Okay, I have to stand here and state that I have never seen any people and I'm on the forums quite a lot I've never seen people wanting achievements or a barbershop tab. I, just straight up, have not seen it. I do not think they are necessary in Classic and I do not think they are needed at all. Now, this being said, why is it a retail player? How do you know that it's a retail player? I could probably sit here, scroll through all of it and if there is any of this, they are likely to be someone who does not want to or does not play Classic a lot. Yes, it is a likely possibility, but unless you are simply, or they have stated I'm from retail and we should do this. You do not know that's a retail player, you don't and you're just blaming it on these like players, for no reason. It makes no sense, no logical sense and it just doesn't mean anything.

Speaker 1:

Okay, vanilla will stay vanilla, all right, people wanted no changes. I would rather that people from retail want changes like a barbershop and achievement tab. That will not affect anyone in the game. It won't, it simply won't. I would rather people voice that in the forums rather than have classic players back in 2019 say that we shouldn't add a colorblind mode into the options menu because it wasn't in the original vanilla, the options menu, because it wasn't in the original vanilla. I would rather have a barbershop and an achievement tab being proposed than classic players saying, no, it shouldn't be in the game because it wasn't in original vanilla. Are you kidding colorblind mode like it doesn't affect you at all, does it? It really doesn't affect you at all. Colorblind mode is for those who are unable to see certain colors or, you know, have difficulty seeing these colors, and yet you're wanting them to not add it as an option in classic back in 2019 because you want your hashtag.

Speaker 1:

No changes. What kind of mentality is that? That is pathetic. So we can sit here and go oh yeah, these retail players want to ruin classic. Classic players want to ruin classic and I think classic players do a better job at ruining classic than retail players do, because everyone's all about, oh, this community, this is like the best community ever, or like it's all about the community in classic WoW. You know it is. You are meant to do dungeons, interact with players. But the people that I see who are the most horrible in classic are the classic players. They just are. They just simply are. It's incredible to see and it's always that them who go oh, these retail players are ruining classic, oh, these players are ruining classic. Oh, these players are ruining classic. It's so crazy to think.

Speaker 1:

Imagine saying that out in the world. You'd be absolutely gobsmacked if you saw someone saying that on the street Like, oh, these retail players, oh, look this person here or that person. Like, if you're giving a general consensus of a person, you are going to go, this group of people Like how bad does that sound? It sounds horrendous, doesn't it? You wouldn't do it out in like IRL. Why would you do it in WoW? People play World of Warcraft. The game. World of Warcraft is the whole game.

Speaker 1:

Yes, there's classic, there's retail, there's Season of Discovery. You know there's multiple different versions of WoW, but it's all the same. It's all the same. It's crazy. And yes, there's going to be dickheads from retail, from Season of Discovery, from Classic, but the thing is, it isn't just retail players that are recommending or saying, oh, there should be a barbershop or an achievement. Classic players do this as well. And unless these people have stated I'm from retail and this should be what is in Classic, you don't know that they are retail players. It's that simple. It's that simple.

Speaker 1:

This is one that is very short and it just annoyed me, and it always does. And it's just crazy because, again, you wouldn't sit there and go. This group of people like that's, like Jen, you're being very general with the group of people that you're like basing this assumption on, and you just wouldn't do that in real life. So why would you do it in a game? Anyway? And again, this is a bad look for classic players because this classic player is going oh, these players are like being stupid, and it's like you're the one who's making yourself and your community look bad because you're trying to, you know, be annoying essentially and trying to pin it on someone who might not even be someone who plays retail. It's just crazy the whole.

Speaker 1:

Go back to retail. Go back to classic. Like what is the point of it? Retail is a great game right now. Classic is a great game right now. Season of discovery amazing right now. Like plunder, storm, that just went. Amazing. All of these different things that blizzard have brought out and have available when you have a subscription is amazing.

Speaker 1:

And yet the player base just goes yep, no, you gotta go back to retail, you don't belong here. Like how does that feel? Imagine saying that to someone in real life. You walk up to someone, whatever ethnicity they are. You just say go back to where you came from. Like, go back. How bad is that? That's what you're saying to retail players. That's what you say to classic players if they try retail.

Speaker 1:

Although I don't think classic players do try retail at all, I think that more should and they might not like it. Fair enough, it is one of them things I wouldn't suspect that they would. But at least you've tried it and that's fair enough. But you just wouldn't say this stuff. It's crazy. And even the post like below it's like classic era forever. Already. Stop playing fresh, as everything I need is already here on white main, in less than 10 months, that the server will be back to its former glory like no, it won't. The sad is it won't with these classic era realms, because people want to play fresh realms After these fresh realms are done and move on to TBC.

Speaker 1:

You know what they're going to want. They're going to say, oh, can we have fresh, fresh classic. Like it's just ridiculous, just ridiculous. Um, yeah, I don't get it. But moving on to the bigger one now, this one is very intriguing.

Speaker 1:

So for my final post before sub expires okay, they've listed out quite a few key points that they want. Um, I haven't gone through it massively, but it did pique my interest. I'm going to agree, disagree, uh, counteract points, kind of play devil's advocate to it and see where we go. So just pointing out the key problems. I see that made me unsub. I know this is a waste of time because Blizz doesn't read these posts, but I have some time to waste. Also, no, you can't have my gold, why not? You're unsubbing, but you know, whatever, I will divide this into two camps blizz creative problems and player creative problems. This makes it easier for me as well to agree or disagree if this is a player or blizz creative problem.

Speaker 1:

So, lack of communication with players. It feels like the only time you guys communicate with us is for scheduled releases of phases or if something goes horribly wrong. Case in point the release of AV, where it was clear that there was no QA testing done before release. Your players want to hear from you, especially when it comes to issues that routinely get brought up, whether it's minor things like adding QOL additions to anniversary, or as serious as doing something like crackdown on botting slash, player toxicity, etc. Shoot. Even jumping into the forum posts on occasions makes us feel at least blizzard is paying attention to what we're talking about. I actually agree with this to some extent.

Speaker 1:

I think that there needs to be a bit more communication from bl and I feel like, even if you do like a weekly rundown post, you have one guy who does a weekly rundown post Every sort of week you do like a massive post saying this is what we're looking at for classic retail Screw it. You can get one person for each thing. You can get one person to do retail, you can get one person to do season of discovery, classic, but essentially it's the same thing. This is what we're looking at. These are the kind of minor issues that we're looking into at the moment. These are the major issues. Doesn't even have to be a lot, but it's just a few points each time and because, obviously, if they go, yeah, we're looking at every single bug and then list out 200 bugs, it's not going to be fun to read, is it? So it's like, yeah, we're looking at these are the major, like minor bugs. These are the major, major bugs. Um, we're looking at these, we're trying to fix them. They might be released within the next hotfix, if not the week after.

Speaker 1:

Very simple, I think that the communication needs to be better. From blizzard, I really do, and I think that this is in all forms of the game, not just classic, not just retail, season of Discovery as well, you're looking at all forms of games that need to be sort of explained. Now, you might argue, but there is a sort of roadmap for each of these Season of Discovery, classic, retail, etc. But these roadmaps aren't communicating. Yes, it gives you an idea of when things will be released, but it's very open to interpretation. It's like, oh, my God, this is going to be released next winter. And it's like, yeah, great, sure. But when we get to next winter, you suddenly hear nothing until it is like, oh my God, the PTR has gone up. And then there's a big blue post of, like the ptr has gone up this week. This is what it entails, and then again you just don't really hear a lot. Um, I think that they could do a better communication thing with the smaller things. Okay, just saying, yeah, we've looked into this, this is like what we're coming out with, these are the results of this, etc. Etc. I definitely think they could do more. Um, communication on a smaller scale doesn't have to be massive, just anything. Um.

Speaker 1:

Next point apparent lack of passion for classic. Let's see this. If you guys truly have a passion for classic, we would see more involvement with the classic community. I understand there are people here who take this game way too serious and respond in a toxic manner, but this isn't all of us. Also, much of that can be mixed up with many players passions for classic and disappointment with the direction it is going. If you weren't, if we weren't, why would we be playing the game? That's several decades old, several decades, I think. His math's off a bit there. While I rarely bring up entitlements, I believe Blizzard owes us a dev team that is just as passionate about Classic WoW as the players of Classic are. Additionally, a passionate team would never release an AV that linked anniversary and sod out of a qa test okay. Firstly, yes, they would. All right.

Speaker 1:

Bugs happen all the time. Season of discovery and classic era realms were released side by side, so it's quite easy to just accidentally, you know, mess up and say these people should be split from these people. It happens. It happens. It's a bug. It happens. It took like a day to fix. It was just fixed on the reset, essentially, so it's really not that big of a deal. This basically just comes down to lack of communication, because there is a classic WoW team and the classic WoW team on Season of Discovery are absolutely killing it. The classic WoW team doesn't really need to do much. That's the problem. All they need to do is press a button that says yep, we're good to go for phase two, bang. Yep, we're good to go for phase three, bang, because they did this in 2019. They did this, okay, so that's all it is. It's pressing a big red button that says release phase 2, release phase 3.

Speaker 1:

Look at the Season of Discovery community. They are doing so well, like the people who are running that, because it's new content now, like Karazhan Crypts. They've changed up stuff like Naxxramas. They've done, like Karazhan bits and bobs, new dungeons. It's really good and they are constantly trying to improve that and I think it's a very good WoW. I think Season of Discovery is a very good World of Warcraft. So I don't think that this point is really an argument for anything genuinely Lack of support to Classic WoW from Microsoft.

Speaker 1:

This one I don't blame entirely on the WoW Classic team. It seems like there is a minimal support given to WoW classic as a whole, which directly ties with my previous points. This game needs actual game masters to help protect wow classic from those who try to cheat the game, whether it's gold buying, botting, etc. The automated report system has been abused and manipulated for reasons that it will never be intended to be used and it is the most bare minimum option you had to address player concerns. Overall, it feels like the only object of Classic is to feed off the nostalgia of players and collect that monthly subscription money without providing any legitimate resources to Classic.

Speaker 1:

What, what Are they crazy? Yes, of course they're going to. Classic is there for the nostalgia purpose, are they? Are they mental? Classic is, of course, there for the nostalgia purpose. The resources that go into classic are very much okay. We've released blackwing lair now. We've released as all grub and encourage now we've released nax ramus. That's it, guys. That's classic. Unless you want something new in classic, which case you go over to season of discovery where you have new dungeons, new like raids and stuff. That is classic plus. What do you mean? Like they're just there for the nostalgia. Of course people play classic for the nostalgia. That that, no, I'm sorry, this point is completely wrong. It is completely wrong.

Speaker 1:

I agree with him about the botting and gold buying, though I think that there does need to be gms in classic. I genuinely do. I think that I could sit there for one night and ban hundreds of bots If I went into classic like era or classic non-hardcore realms. I think I could sit there for one night and ban hundreds of bots and I get that this is easier to do. When you ban bots on a mass scale, I get that this is easier to do and it's more detrimental for the companies who do sell gold. I get that it is detrimental to them um, doing it on this sort of scale. But yeah, I, I think that they do need a few gms just to check some smaller things, like in the instant, like kind of thing.

Speaker 1:

It's like, oh my god, this guy, immediately, you know, uh, banned this bot or whatever. You know, it's one of them things, um, because there are some that are very, very obvious, but yeah, it is one of them. Now it's tough to say if they do or don't have these. You obviously get the in-game mail, um, that says thank you for reporting, but again, you don't know what kind of ban they got, you don't know what's happened. It's just thank you for reporting and it again, you don't know what kind of ban they got, you don't know what's happened. It's just thank you for reporting and it's like okay, great, doesn't feel great. So I agree with the gold buying and the botting and that they need to maybe put some GMs in, but the nostalgia point is just ridiculous. Of course, wow Classic was brought back for nostalgia, like it's crazy that you think that it was anything, but it's absolutely insane. Um.

Speaker 1:

Next point is no plan to deal with botting. From what I have read from you guys, compelled um, or coupled with the lack of communication from us, your players, I feel safe in my assignment assessment. Uh, that you guys have no clear plan or desire to deal with the botting and real money trade in your game, which, on the lighter scale, shows indifference of classic or, on the heavier side, neglectance of classic. This is exemplified further that when you do your bans you are only a handful of weeks, rather than permanent bans of botting accounts. You guys really must need the subscription money badly if you allow bots to get a slap on the wrist versus permanent bans and continue to operate. Okay, where is his evidence to back up that they only get banned for a few weeks? Because I'm pretty sure they get permabanned. I genuinely do. Any botting permabanned Makes sense to just do that. It's ridiculous. Needs to. I don't know Again, he probably doesn't have the statistics to back this up, I don't as well but they do waves of botting like banning because it's more detrimental to them. But they do need to be a bit more on the communicative. No, they need to communicate this a lot more to the public that, yes, a ban wave will go out soon, um, be prepared, and stuff like that. It's all. And, you know, maybe reward the players who obviously report a bot or something like successfully report a bot like just a couple gold or something you know. It's nice. It's nice. I get that this will cause inflation, but a couple gold can't be that bad Now for the player.

Speaker 1:

Creative problems, widespread cheating. I use cheating slash gold buying interchangeably here. Yes, gold buying is cheating. It is obvious with the amount of botting and real money trade happening in the classic that cheating is spread far and wide throughout classic. I understand you have your alleged 120 hour work week, nine wives and 27 kids that you have to deal with and that you justify buying gold. However, buying gold you won't contribute to the cesspit that is World of Warcraft botting slash, real money trade problem. If people wouldn't buy gold here, there wouldn't be a real money trade issue, along with a decrease in the actual botting that is taking place.

Speaker 1:

I agree with this. This is the most intelligent thing I've ever seen on the forum right now Because, yes, if you buy gold, they bot more. If you don't buy gold, there's no reason for bots. So this is the most intelligent thing I've ever heard at the moment. I really hope your Epic, mount, lionheart, helm, edge, masters and whatever digital items you bought with your Real Money Trade gold was worth it at the expense of supporting botting slash Real Money Trade.

Speaker 1:

I have no problems with this. This is a player problem and I'm glad that he's acknowledged that this is a player problem because it is cheating to buy gold and gold shouldn't be bought via a third-party website because it is cheating Straight up Like you deserve to be banned for buying the gold. That's it. It's that simple. If you buy gold in WoW, you deserve to be banned, perma-banned. I don't care. That way people will stop buying it and it will be like oh shit, I can't do this, so I'm just going to stop buying it. This will result in a decrease in bots playing the game. It's that simple. Just don't buy gold. This is your. This is the like player's problem that they've created hr culture.

Speaker 1:

It gets exhausting reading through looking for group in which every dungeon has something, if not multiple things, saying hard reserved. Why don't you make a group of your own? Then I did, and when I asked if I could hard reserve items for people, it was clear the majority of players in classic. The only enjoyment they get out of the game is when they get good passes in raids. Yeah, I would say so, um, I've spoken about many different times when I've been sort of declined from a raid because, oh, my gear isn't good enough and stuff. And it's like, bro, I did this raid last week in worse gear. It's. It's not that tough, it's molten core. You walk in, kill some mobs, dispel a few things and you, you know, go your own way. After a couple hours it's really not that big of a deal.

Speaker 1:

Um, yes, I think that the mindset of players has shifted to more of a speed running culture and I don't think it's good. Um, I'm all for playing the game to your best abilities, but I think sometimes you have to slow it down, and I think classic is the place to slow it down when it comes to world of warcraft, because retail, yes, mythic plus pvp, very intense, very quick, very fast paced classic. You're hitting a mob every few seconds. That's about it. That's the extent of your gameplay. Um, yes, I think that people need to chill out when it comes to world of warcraft. A bit hyper competitiveness.

Speaker 1:

This isn't directed at those who min max as much as they are directed at those who expect others to bid max and follow the meta just like they do. Don't know if you know this, but not or not. But classic vanilla is by far the easiest version of wow there is. Yes, thank you. Someone said it, someone else said it. This is a classic player saying this. Please acknowledge that wow classic is easy. Please just do it. Um, because loads of people think, no, it's definitely tough, it isn't. It really isn't. The dungeons in kata are far more mechanically difficult and punishing than anything in this version of the game. Yet many players treat wow classic like it's a moba in terms of complexity and challenge.

Speaker 1:

I I agree. I have seen 40 man mans of mages and 40 mans of druids down 40 man raids Shoot. I've seen a two man down Onyxia. Yes, this actually happened back in 2019. A 40 man raid was defeated by two people, a priest and a warrior. That was it. That's all it took. Two people took down anixia. That simple. I promise you want your raid, won't suffer by including a handful of meme specs into your raid. And before you say you want speed clears because you have those aforementioned work hours wives, kids you've got to deal with. Perhaps mmos aren't the best game for you to get into. If time is a factor, I agree. Try a game that you can pause and step off, or team shooters like marvel rivals, free to play.

Speaker 1:

By the way, um, I agree everything. Every point that he has said when it comes to player created problems, I actually agree with. I'm. I'm in shock. I thought I was going to disagree with this entire post, but this guy has done perfectly by letting us know the actual player problems. Now, don't get me wrong, some of the blizzard stuff is wrong. Um, I think that some of it is a bit out there and you know, crazy and would need statistics to back up, but simply, the player problems. I'm all all on board, for I think that he's hit it on the nail with these three points that he's made completely.

Speaker 1:

Um, I've cancelled my subscription from wow previously for various reasons in the past, but this is the first time I cancelled due to disappointment disappointment with the devs, disappointment is the first time I cancelled due to disappointment Disappointment with the devs, disappointment with the player base, disappointment with the direction of the game is going. I don't really know what he means by the game is going, because Classic hasn't really changed since, like the 2019 release. Yes, you have chrono booms and, I think, are looking for group tool now, but they are quality of life changes and, let's face it, people used an add-on in classic anyway to like snipe people's looking for group like messages and like have it on a database. So it's really not that big of a deal. I know there are great people in this game and I've made several great friends that we met playing this game, but I also know my time in this game is done. Thanks for the memories and good luck out there.

Speaker 1:

You know what? I think that this is one of the best forum posts I've ever come across. Genuinely, um, yeah, genuinely, I think I'm. I'm sorry, I'm just in shock. I think that this is one of the best forum posts I've ever come across. I can't believe it. I genuinely can't believe it. I think he's hit the nail on the head with the player base problems kind of out there, with the blizz problems, but I'm willing to sort of overlook that and not really care now. I just don't know. I think that I'm speechless. I'm speechless.

Speaker 1:

Yes, there is a big problem when it comes to players playing world of warcraft right now. I've said this in many episodes and I think that the culture and sort of the stance that many players have playing the game is very high maintenance and sometimes it's good to have that in the game, but all the time, no, it isn't. It really isn't and it's not healthy. I've never had to agree with a post. I think that he has got it spot on. Do you guys agree with it? Because always think that it is a like player problem a lot of the time when it comes to wow or not. A player problem. But players can certainly help it become better with their attitude if they just switched it up a bit. So do you guys agree with it, do you not? Do you think it's stupid? Do you think it's smart? Do you think it's a complete load of bullshit? You know what do you guys think? But that is where I'm ending this episode for this week.

Speaker 1:

Apologies for no episode wednesday. Um, I just didn't feel great, I'm not gonna lie, when I went to record it a couple days. I really didn't feel great, um, but next wednesday should be back to normal. Two episodes a week should be fine. But yeah, thank you all very much for listening. Do check out all of the socials down below constant stuff happening over there, as well as the Etsy. The Etsy is still down at the moment. This is because I am also still away, so please do take that in mind. But the etsy shop will be back up and running as of next week on the wednesday, okay, so please do check it out again once it's back up and running. Loads of stuff to check out on there. But yeah, thank you all very much once again and go, eval a friend, goodbye, thank you.