The Great Debate: Classic vs. Retail WoW (Spoiler: It's Complicated)

We explore whether WoW players have become too entitled after 20+ years of content updates, examining forum discussions about player gratitude and the divide between PvP and PvE communities.

• Weekly news: Current world bosses are Shirai in Hallowfall and The Gob Father in the Undermine
• Wrath of the Lich King Time Walking is the bonus event this week
• Player ingratitude has become prevalent, with many consuming content quickly then complaining
• PvP is not a "side project" but an integral part of WoW since the beginning
• The Trading Post system provides free cosmetics yet still receives complaints
• Classic vs Retail debate centers on gameplay complexity and nostalgic perspectives
• Gameplay in Classic is simpler (repetitive spell rotations) while Retail offers more complexity
• Personal preference determines which version feels "better" - neither is objectively superior

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Chapters

• 0:53 Welcome to Pig and Whistle Tales
• 1:16 Weekly News Update
• 3:21 Are Players Ungrateful?
• 11:06 PvP vs PvE Content Debate
• 14:42 Classic WoW vs Retail Discussion
• 21:25 Closing Thoughts and Social Media

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:45

The Thank you. Hello, and welcome to the Pig and Whistle Tales from Azeroth. As always here at the Pig and Whistle Inn in Stormwind, I go for a variety of subjects with regards to World of Warcraft. A cup of bottle or a pint? Sit back and enjoy this episode. We'll be looking over a few things to ease us back into the weekly episodes and, as always, we do have the weekly news. But I do want to start off by apologising for the past week or week and a half of there not being any episodes, week or week and a half of there not being any episodes. For those that don't know, I have been very ill recently and it's to do with my voice. Basically it's to do with my throat and anything like along them lines, so I haven't really been able to speak or I felt awful when speaking. I do want to apologise for this'm probably not 100, even as I am doing this episode, but I am at a decent enough health in order to do these episodes now, so we should be good to go from here on out. Um, for those of you that don't follow the social medias, I do post it if I'm ever unable to do a episode that week. Um, I usually post it on twitter, or x as it's now known, so do follow me there if you are um ever wondering what's happening, and other social medias I still post on. I still do the tiktoks and stuff every now and again, um, when I'm not posting uh podcast episodes. But that's all saved for the end.

Speaker 1: 2:27

We will carry on with the weekly news. So shirai and the gob father are your world bosses for the week. Shirai is located within hallowful and the gob father within the undermine. You have wallets of drain, or time walking, as your bonus event for the week. This is simple. Um, this is very much. You do wall of the drain, or dungeons. You get time walking badges for it and you get um different things that you can buy. Essentially, with these time walking badges, you can buy reputations, um, you can buy cosmetics, mounts, etc. Etc. Packed house is your brawl for the week. Packed house is essentially a 15 versus 15 in a arena map. So this is a 15 versus 15 in nagrand arena or ashermane's fall or something like this. So it's jam-packed, like it says in the name, and essentially it's just at first to lose. All of their players loses the match. It's very, very simple.

Speaker 1: 3:29

Now let's start off with a couple of forum posts that I've picked up on. So this one, I think actually some people need to hear are we, as players, ungrateful now? What is your very first reaction to this? Because mine is yes, I think that we are ungrateful. Now, what is your very first reaction to this? Because mine is yes, I, I think that we are ungrateful.

Speaker 1: 3:46

Um, we have had 20 plus years now of a game that has been constantly updated. It has been live serviced for 20 plus years now. Obviously there are different intervals at which this was updated. Some of them, um, some patches might have come a bit quicker, some might have come along a bit later, but ultimately we have had loads of content throughout the years and I don't think people appreciate it enough. They always um complete the content within probably a week or so and then start bitching and complaining that there is nothing to do when they power leveled through all of it to try and just, you know, do it all in one week. It's a bit ridiculous.

Speaker 1: 4:29

So something that's bothered me, it uh is that, despite the effort that goes into the development of the game, there are enough posts that express gratitude for the blood, sweat and tears that are poured into this game. There aren't enough. Sorry, one portion of the player base that's a repeat offender and I strongly advocate for removal from the game is the pvp player base. Okay, it's a mini game that has acted as a tax to the resources of our game developers, and yet time and passion has been lovingly poured into it. It strikes me that, despite blizzard's best efforts, they continue to endure being ripped off by bad actors who don't appreciate the efforts that have gone into the development of pvp. So a lot of things that I see are with regards to pve, um, when it comes to people being ungrateful, and a lot of it comes from a classic. To be honest with you.

Speaker 1: 5:28

Pvp yes, don't get me wrong. Pvp players love to complain. Um, the only thing we really care about is if you give us a new map each season, perfect, great, because if you can do an entire raid and another entire like mega dungeon each patch, then you can give us one little arena map. Okay, it's not that big of a deal. Um, and balance changes. I think balance changes are needed constantly. Every patch you maybe get like one big balance change. Um, kind of you can kind of do what overwatch does, where you can do one big balance change, um kind of you can kind of do what overwatch does, where you can do one big balance change like halfway through the season, um, and that's it. Or you can do like a series of smaller balance changes like every quarter way of the season.

Speaker 1: 6:19

Now there are multiple things that you can do, but balance is a big issue within world of warcraft and in pvp specifically, because in pve you obviously have mythic plus, which has five people, um mythic raiding, which has 20, and you can spread out the amount of classes that you have. You always take a evoker for their buff, you take a druid for their buff, a mage for theirs, etc. Etc. So everyone's got their place in pve. But if your class is awful in pvp, you're just never going to like find groups to play with.

Speaker 1: 6:54

Essentially, you need to find, like, friends of your own to play with, and I think that that's really really tough and unfortunate to do, because if you have a class that is very oppressive let's say, dhdk is very oppressive right now um, not right now, but let's say that it is um, what? Why would anyone who doesn't play these classes play arenas? Okay, why would they? Because you're just going to get run down by a dhdk that can grip you, that can chain you for about 10 years and you're just going to get slowly killed or, in some cases, quickly killed by this comp. Um, it's not fun, it becomes very stale and it needs to be mixed up every now and again. I think that this is what the main problem is for PvP that it becomes too stale if there aren't enough PvP changes or just balance changes as a whole. I think that's the problem with it.

Speaker 1: 7:57

And you say it's a side project thing, but like it isn't. Pvp is in any game. Pvp's been in World of Warcraft since the beginning. Okay, like it just has been. So it isn't a side piece, it is half of it, it is half of the game PvP and PvE. Like it's absolutely ridiculous and the thing is like it's not, like it's taking resources away from pve.

Speaker 1: 8:29

Tell me, when was the last time that you didn't get a raid on a like a major patch? Because you never have. You've always gotten a raid. Every major patch, whether it be this um season, which is the galagio last season is, oh my god, I can't even remember it. Um, oh my god, the raid naruba palace, I believe it was called. And then in dragonflight you obviously had um vault of the incarnates. You had a mere drasil, so you had multiple raids and you get multiple raids, each like expansion. We probably get one or two like arena maps each expansion. That's, that's the difference and that's just very sad. Um, but my point is pve has never been neglected because they're working on pvp things. It's absolutely ridiculous. If you were to not get a raid for a patch, the pvp section would be in uproar, there would be a mass meltdown on the forums and a a witch hunt, essentially to find this missing raid, and it would be ridiculous. Um.

Speaker 1: 9:43

Another point of contention is the fixation on the trading post rewards. It's free cosmetics for simply logging in and doing what you are already going to do. How prosperous are we that we can moan about assets that someone poured time into development? That is free. I have to agree with this one. I think that people who complain about the trading post, um, and the item rewards that you can get from the trading post is ridiculous. It is absolutely ridiculous. Okay, we just take the trading post away, then what are you going to be happy about that? No, of course not. You're going to be upset that you can't get these cosmetics, so you deal with it. Okay, you just deal with whatever in the trading post. If you don't like it that month, that's fine. Save up your coins and buy stuff for the next month's one. You know, it's not that big of a deal. Um, yeah, I think people need to get over the fact that the trading post is there to stay. You get it for free, you do not need to do anything special for it, and if you don't like the items you don't, it's one of them. Things that month. Yeah, I think it's important that we collectively wake up and try and be more grateful. I, for one, am happy to be here and I appreciate the passion that goes into the game from all angles.

Speaker 1: 11:00

In summary, remove PvP, move it to a separate client. I mean what? Soften your voice about non-material issues, eg trading posts, is not as exciting for one to two months. Soften your voice and make less noise about class balance. It's being worked on and it's unhelpful to be the process, to be patient, say thank you and continue to support the game.

Speaker 1: 11:29

Um, okay, firstly, pvp is not going to be removed and it's ridiculous that you even say okay, what if I said remove pve, yeah, what? What? Now you know, suddenly you might feel like, oh well, that's stupid. It's stupid to remove pvp because it's part of the game. And look again, pve isn't losing resources for people working on pvp things. If anything, pvp is the more neglected of the two when it comes to like comparing everything that everything gets. And then you've got battle pets, you've got rps, like all of this is neglected in instead of pve content, and it's ridiculous. Um, I mean, it's absolutely ridiculous that one.

Speaker 1: 12:21

But I think as a whole, we do need to be more appreciative of what blizzard have given us. Now, don't get me wrong. Blizzard can fuck up. Blizzard can fuck up a lot, and they do release some very bad content. They do release some very good content. I mean, you can have an expansion that is so, so bad, but it has one of the best raids ever in it. Um, which is crazy, isn't it? Which would be Warlords of Draenor and that would be Blackrock Foundry as the raid. But again, warlords of Draenor I don't even think was a bad expansion as a whole, as a gameplay whole. I think it just didn't have content. It didn't have a lot of content because there was a massive content drought, there was an entire patch that was basically left out of the game and it wasn't great a patch that was basically left out of the game and it wasn't great. It really really wasn't great. And, yeah, I, I really don't know.

Speaker 1: 13:13

I think people do take it for granted sometimes and I think that needs to change. But you, I don't know, some of his points are just ridiculous. The pvp ones really are ridiculous in my honest opinion. But I, we also do show our gratitude by paying the sub every month and we do ask for, like changes, and we get that. These changes aren't going to be every week or something, and over the past like few months, we have been getting consistent changes, whether it be to class balancing, more updates, hot fixes, etc. Etc. So this is really good and I, for one, am grateful with the content that is in the game at the moment.

Speaker 1: 13:57

But I also do like to complain about some of the things that are happening within WoW and I think that I kind of don't have a right to, but I feel like some of it is valid, but some of it isn't valid as well. Okay, and it's trying to find that balance of okay, they really should be doing this, but at the same time, your ideas are very unrealistic to that extent. So, you know, keep it as simple as you'd like, but you can still complain about it. Now. The next one I wanted to look at and this will be the last, because I think I can feel my voice going. I'm not sure if you guys can hear it or not, but the last one is it's official. Classic WoW is the best version. Ok, so I need to know why it's the best version. Okay, so I need to know why it's the best version. I need to. I need stuff that is listed as to why it is. Give me three reasons, give me one reason and I will agree. Disagree can counter, argue it. You know we'll go from there. Just plain old vanilla for me, thanks.

Speaker 1: 15:04

Retail has lost its RPG identity and has become a seasonal lobby game. Now, okay, seasonal lobby game. What does classic do you level up? You go into molten core, you get the gear from molten core. And then what you level up you? You go out herbing. You go out mining okay, you do that on retail. You go out do some pvp okay, you do that on retail. You go do some dungeons. Guess what you can do that on retail now, okay, sure, like, you do these seasonal things, these mythic pluses, these raids, these, whatnot, but you do that on classic as well. That's literally what phase one, two, three, four, five, six is all about for classic. Phase one is molten core, phase two is blackwing lair. These are just seasons. These are seasons. It's ridiculous. This isn't a point. Um, to be completely honest, I'm not enjoying sod eitherain. Old vanilla really is the best version of the game.

Speaker 1: 16:07

Sorry for stating the obvious, but I needed to get this off my chest. Honorable mention for Hardcore. It wasn't half bad. It wasn't half bad. Hardcore WoW is classic World of Warcraft. Are you? My brain is imploding. What do you mean? It's not half bad. Classic hardcore WoW is classic World of Warcraft. The only difference is, if you die, you transfer your character to classic WoW classic era like, oh my god, my brain is imploding with that.

Speaker 1: 16:46

Okay, firstly, classic WoW is a good game. I'm not discouraging this, I'm not saying that it isn't okay, but I prefer retail and I think retail is better. Now you might be thinking oh, that's crazy. Again, I've said about these sort of classic stuff a lot before. My point of view is that classic is great. It's very slow paced. That's amazing If you have people to play it with, great. But you can also play retail with people as well and enjoy it, and I do. I have people that I play with on retail and I enjoy it, and if I played with them on classic I wouldn't enjoy it. And I do. I have people that I play with on retail and I enjoy it, and if I played with them on classic I wouldn't enjoy it as much.

Speaker 1: 17:37

It's that simple, but classic always will have these rose tinted goggles where it's going to be nostalgic driven, and these rose tinted goggles will make you think, oh, this is the best version of wow. But but in reality, if you play a paladin, you're hitting stuff with a hammer and pressing judgment every six seconds. If you are a mage, you are either pressing blizzard every six seconds or a frost bolt every six seconds. If you are a rogue, you press sinister strike and then eviscerate, yeah, um. If you are a shaman, you press wind fury to give a buff to your weapon and then you press storm strike, or you press lightning bolt or you just press chain heel.

Speaker 1: 18:23

Okay, do you see where I'm going with this? It isn't a great game when you get to the core of it. Okay, the best things about Classic is its simplicity. That's what it is. Okay, it's a simple game and you can enjoy it with friends and just chill on it for a couple hours as sort of a mind numbing game. Okay, game okay with retail, people might get a bit overwhelmed. That's fair enough.

Speaker 1: 18:49

There's a lot to retail, but I'm enjoying the complexity of the rotations a bit more. You need to keep your dots up. You need to constantly do more damage, build astral power, send all that astral power into something with star surges or starfall, depending on if you're doing mythic plus or pvp, you can change up your talents to actually do different types of like what? What are they called like rotations? Basically, because if you're looking at classic, all you're doing is pressing frostbolt. If I am an arcane mage, I am still pressing frostbolt. If I am a frost ma, I'm still pressing Frostbolt. Only when I change to Fire is when I press Fireball. And again, I don't press Fireball like, apart from like, I don't press anything apart from Fireball. I press Scorch to get the Scorch stacks up, but then I press Fireball. And how is that enjoyable? It isn't a fun rotation. But then I press Fireball. And how is that enjoyable? It isn't a fun rotation.

Speaker 1: 19:50

Classic is always going to be rose-tinted goggles and it's just not a superior version to WoW in my opinion. But that is my opinion. Others will have different ones, and I go off of my experience playing Classic WoW. I go off of how much I enjoyed it from a gameplay perspective. The best parts about um classic, well, for me was going into diamond waste by myself as a mage and doing jump runs to get some gold. That was it. I didn't really enjoy the raiding aspect. I didn't really enjoy anything else.

Speaker 1: 20:29

I enjoyed the pvp a bit, but again, it's nothing that was like really serious. Oh, a warrior has charged me, okay, I blink. Oh, now he's pressed intercept. Okay, that's fine, I know for him. I walk five feet away, frostbolt, frostbolt, kona, cold, and he's basically not going to kill me and he's already half dead already. So again, the pvp is very simplistic. I don't think it's the best version and that's my opinion I need. Everyone's going to have a difference of opinion on these things and that is okay, but you cannot just say that this is or isn't, because everyone's going to have a different view of it. It is what it is, but I do feel my voice going so I do have to end it there, I'm afraid guys.

Speaker 1: 21:23

Do check out all of the socials down below. I will constantly post updates if there isn't an episode this week and stuff, so do follow me on twitter. Slash x and more, more, uh, more. Merch is going up on etsy constantly, so do check that out as well. But, honestly, if you want to see how I play, wow, tiktok's probably the best way to do it or YouTube I've been doing loads of streams on YouTube currently, so do check that out. I usually do some threes with the people that I play with the team. I do some Boom King gameplay, I do some Mistweaver and everything in between, basically, but do check out all the socials again. Thank you all very much for your patience as well. Um, once again over the past week and a half. I do need to say thank you for that again. It's really appreciated, but should be back to normal scheduling now, so hopefully, anyways, going forward. Thank you all very much for listening and go eval a friend, goodbye, do do. Thank you.