Pig & Whistle Tales - A World of Warcraft Podcast

Defensives, Meta, and MMR: Unpacking WoW PvP's Challenges

• Gabriel • Season 5 • Episode 3

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The PvP scene in World of Warcraft deserves more attention, particularly regarding its current state and potential improvements that could increase player participation.

• DPS players dying without using defensive cooldowns frustrates healers, but penalizing them isn't the solution
• Current "burst meta" makes PvP exciting but can be daunting for newcomers
• Rather than nerfing strong classes, underperforming specs should be buffed to create better balance
• Low-rated players should focus on using all defensive cooldowns appropriately and maintaining a relaxed mindset
• The 18-year-old MMR system needs a complete overhaul similar to Overwatch's 0-5000 rating approach
• Strategic placement of rewards at various rating thresholds would encourage consistent participation
• Resto Shaman tips: maintain constant Healing Stream Totem uptime and effective use of Earth Living Weapon

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Speaker 1:

Music do. Hello and welcome to the Pig and Whistle Tales from Azeroth. As always here at the Pig and Whistle Inn in Stormwind, I go through a variety of subjects with regards to World of Warcraft. So grab a bottle or a pint, sit back and enjoy this midweek episode. We'll be going over a lot of pvp things now. This is because I believe that pvp doesn't get talked about enough. I believe that there are multiple things that need to happen in pvp um, to maybe increase the number count of participants, uh, maybe even honestly, to just raise awareness of the state that pvp can be in. At some point. There's also going to be some weird wacky stuff, um, that we can go over, give our opinions on, but let's get started. So the first one I want to start off on is start penalizing dPS that don't press defensives. Okay, this is clearly a healer that is a little bit annoyed, just a little bit. So Holy Priest versus Holy Priest, okay, and the DPS is a Rogue. And then all three Mage specs. So Frost, arcane and Fire. The first round Rogue chases into the open and gets nuked. Spirit Guardian procs he gets swapped, dies with cloak and vanish happens. Second round rk mage dies with opener, um in opener because he doesn't use alter time that he activated at 100. So he did activate it and is not silenced, cc'd he, his block is off, cooldown, okay now. Firstly, you don't need to be silenced or CCed to not be able to use Alter Time. If there is another Holy Priest and if there are mages on the other team, they can dispel, slash, spell, steal the Alter Time. So this is one way that it can affect mages. Third round Fire Mage procs Guardian Spirit in opener Procs, quarterize, get swapped and then dies without blocking. Fourth round Rogue dies with Cloak and Vanish ready it in opener rocks, quarterize, get swapped and then dies without blocking. Yeah, fourth round rogue dies with cloak and vanish ready happens. Fifth round dies with cloak and vanish ready. Sixth round frost mage dies because he doesn't use alter time that he activated at 100 and is not silent, cc'd as block off cd.

Speaker 1:

Penalize them harshly. There is absolutely no reason any dps should gain mmr from this clown show. They should all lose mmr, okay. So look, people who don't use defensives. There's a couple things that can happen. Firstly, they actively say that they are not going to try and they die on purpose. These are the people you should penalize. Okay, but people who don't use defensives either are not as aware of these sort of concepts as they should be, or they simply just don't have time to react and press or something happens and they die.

Speaker 1:

I've played many 3v3 arenas and my mage has been destroyed, um from 40 to 0 in one global. Okay, he still has double block, he still has everything, he has an altered time up, but the 40 to zero dead happens. The reason the alter time is so good is if there are no purges. Okay, now, with purges, it makes it a bit difficult and, from what I'm seeing or hearing, this is a lowish mmr lobby. Okay, quite a low mmr lobby.

Speaker 1:

Now, mages blocking is a big thing right now, and it is a big thing because damage is very high within the game and awc mages are simply not blocking. Not, not not blocking on purpose, but they literally don't have time to block because in one gcd you can die, and that is the current state of the game at the moment, which I think is quite good, but some things are a little bit crazy, okay, uh, it should have that jeopardy of. Okay, I'm really scared now at 40 kind of deal, but it shouldn't kill you immediately, kind of deal. Um, look if you have used all your defensives, but let's face it, you didn't list off anything that you could have used. Yes, you use guardian spirit, that's fine. Use serenity, charge into it, use ray of hope, use spirit of the redeemer, use apotheosis, use like void shift, use any of these, but you didn't list that you used any of these, okay, so my idea is that you didn't as well. Okay, I can be wrong in this, but that's what I'm going to go with. The problem is, neither of you respected the damage that was going to come out.

Speaker 1:

That mages do have ice block, they do have wall, they do have alter time. A lot of their defensive utility comes from that mobility, though, and in a mage versus mage kind of deal, if you get the upper hand, um, or you get the momentum, you're most likely going to win. So if the healer is allowed to trade out cooldowns earlier, great, that's fine. Save block and immunities for um later on in solo shuffle, because dampening is really high, you don't really want to be trading block out the first thing. When, like, it's a five minute round maximum, you want to be trading block at like 60, 70 dampening, you know, which isn't great. So it's tough. You'd need to watch the games to see what's happened.

Speaker 1:

But look, people die without pressing cooldowns all the time. You cannot be penalizing them for not doing so. Yes, they know that they should have pressed a defensive. And if they say that, oh healer, you should have saved me there. No, look, you can save yourself. Okay, you really really can. But if what? What happens?

Speaker 1:

If this is roles reversed, if you're a healer and you've not pressed any defensives, all you've said to me is you've pressed guardian spirit in one round. Okay, you have said the guardian spirit procs. Oh, no, two, two of them, two rounds. Guardian spirit is procced. Okay, now let's say your dps has used every defensive but you still let him die. Should you be penalized if you still have void shift, if you still have apotheosis, if you still have ray of hope, if you still have guardian spirit and he dies? Should you be penalized? Should you be reported? You know it's that kind of deal. Um, people just don't press their defensives. They get one shot randomly. They can just not know that they have it in terms of if it was coming off cooldown. But you have stated that these things were at the start of every round. So it says to me that this is a lower MMR lobby. So you're starting with all of your CDs active still Now, look, these things happen.

Speaker 1:

You just got to go with the flow of it in Solo Shuffle. It's shit. It's really shit and it can happen, but you can't penalize people for not pressing a defensive. It's like watching AWC and seeing like all of these majors not press a block. All right, yep, let's disqualify them from AWC. We've got to penalise them. They're clearly just trolling their team. People just don't have time. They're on a global GCD. They're on global GCD, they're on GCD, which means that they just can't press their ice block. So it's one of them things, man. It's one of them things. Look, you can't penalize people for not pressing a defensive. They are ending up in a MMR, which is equivalent to how they are playing, and the sad thing is you are as well.

Speaker 1:

Look, dps do have an impact in the game. They really, really do, but you're playing against a Holy Priest. That is the exact same spec as you. So what's happening in that round? Because, from what I'm seeing here is now this is probably completely wrong, but six rounds you lost all of them from what I'm seeing. Okay, because he doesn't specify that the rogue or mage on the other team dies or whatever. He's saying that they die on my team without pressing cloak and vanish and you know, block and stuff. So you have gotten Owen sixth by a different Holy priest and they have the exact same team compositions as you have had in this entire game. So are you telling me that it's because the dps on your team suddenly aren't pressing anything? Because to me that sound seems like it's a holy priest difference rather than a dps difference. Does that make sense? Yes, it's shit.

Speaker 1:

When a DPS doesn't use defensives, okay, I do get that. I play healer, I do get that. But you have to take into consideration you're playing the exact same comps. It's not a different healer, it's the exact same healer. So what's he doing different? Try and look at it from that point of view. Oh, okay, he's using like spirit of the redeemer alongside guardian spirit as well, just because my dps are standing in the middle of the open tanking so much damage, so I need to use two defensives in order to keep them alive, rather than just guardian spirit. Now you know there's multiple things that you can do to adapt and climb, but you can't penalize people for not pressing defensives when you are not stating but implying that you didn't press any as well. Okay, so just bear that in mind. Bear that in mind.

Speaker 1:

The next one is pvp is the most fun it's been in years. Now I have to somewhat agree. I really do so. Previous expansions and patches have meant that PvP has gotten very drawn out when it comes to the arena matches. So you're needing dampening, which is the mechanic in the arena that reduces healing. So you're needing a mechanic in the game to end games, which isn't good. It should be the player's skill that ends games, really. Um problem that pvp will always have is balance, balance tuning. So pvp is going to be very much.

Speaker 1:

At the moment there's dominant healers and then there's shit healers. Basically every single class, apart from maybe one or two specializations, is decently viable in terms of any sort of composition, which is good. But again, you're always going to have the outliers and these people who play these classes are going to be a little bit upset about it. So let's see what this guy has to say. Awc is very exciting, with everybody's health dropping and a constant meta evolve live. Pvp is great. Everybody seemingly has a win condition, except maybe shadow priest and lock, which could use some love.

Speaker 1:

Keep the fast to bursty meta. I think the game will get life again. Now it's really, really tough. I think that experienced people who play PvP love this meta, but for people who want to get into PvP, this will be very daunting to get into, because if you walk into an arena and you've got a Ret Warrior which is very good right now and you get one shot, you don't learn a lot from it and you think, well, this is shit, pvp shit. Why would I do this again?

Speaker 1:

Um, whereas in bfa, shanelans, dragonflight, these games were more drawn out, so you would have a five minute game instead and you can learn from it. You can get some enjoyment out of it. You can have a very close game and a good game. Um, I do agree with it, though. I think that the burst meta is decent. I think some burst needs to be tuned just a tiny bit. Um, I do agree with it, though. I think that the burst meta is decent. I think some burst needs to be tuned just a tiny bit. Um, I'm looking at warriors executes. I'm looking at that, um, but I think that it is in a relatively good state.

Speaker 1:

I do think that a couple of specializations need a little bit of love and I think, instead of nerfing classes, you should buff these classes. Um, some of them might need reworks. I genuinely think Mistweaver might need a rework completely, because it's either healing out. Its healing output is either ridiculously high or it's not enough, and monks can't really do as much as other classes can with discs and holy priests, ando, druids and stuff like this. These are the ones that are currently dominating the meta. So I think that some classes and specs might need a little bit of a rework, not massive, but just to give them a little bit of a boost in playtime. I would say but definitely don't nerf stuff. I think that you should bring everything up to this level of where the meta currently is. That's my honest opinion. Again, this will mean that there is a power creep, but then you kind of nerf everything by a set amount. I don't know it's. It's really tough and wonky, um, when it comes to balancing mmo, but I think it is in a very good state and I think that this is the time that people should try and get into arenas, because if you go into an arena, you will slowly get put where you belong rating wise, and then you can figure out the game from there. Kind of deal.

Speaker 1:

The next one now this one is um, intriguing. I'm a very bad healer, or no, sorry. How to improve and reach 1400 rating again? Okay, now, before I carry on 1400 I don't want to sound mean, it isn't that high, but people have different sort of levels to the game. So please like don't, don't try and take this the wrong way or anything, but people shouldn't be judging this person trying to reach a certain goal within arenas, because that's their goal and everyone's going to have a different goal to it. So please don't judge this person. But I'm a very bad healer and DPS and I dropped from 1,600 to 967.

Speaker 1:

Okay, look, it's so rare that people are staying in the 900 range, in the three-digit range, so something clearly fundamental is happening. I'm trying very hard, but everyone else is so much better. The biggest problem is that now, at 900 rating, I have to wait 20 min queues as a healer, so I can't even play to become better. So when queue pops, I'm so nervous to win and I lose again six, six and drop even further, which makes the waiting time maybe 30 minutes or an hour long. Why q time depends on rating. I don't understand. Is some kind of punishment? Okay, you time depends on rating because if you like yourself, like you say you're 967 rating currently if you were to be put back into a 1600 lobby where the average player is, you would just lose 6-0.

Speaker 1:

Okay, it needs people to be around the same rating and I'm afraid that being in the 900 ratings it's going to be a lot longer because there's a lot less people in these ratings. It's the same when you go to the top of the rating system, when you go up and up and up, you're going to take longer and longer and longer in queue times. And this isn't the same for healers, who are high up in rating, because there are a lot of DPS that are higher rating and these healers are constantly getting games, which is good, but it's still like a decent queue time. But it isn't a punishment. It is simply it needs people around that same rating, and people around this rating genuinely don't enjoy PvP as much as people who are on the average side or above average rating in the game. It's just one of them things side or above average rating in the game. It's just one of them things.

Speaker 1:

As for actually climbing, again, if it's solo shuffle, you need to try and relax. Okay, I found that I play my best in solo shuffle when I'm not being competitive and I'm not trying as hard, if that makes sense, like there is a point, like you still try. But if you try too much then all of a sudden you're you're making mistakes because you're too tense, almost. You need to relax in the solo shuffle. You need to have fun with it, and I think that's the key that a lot of people don't know um, that to get you into the higher ratings, you need to relax sometimes and just let your gameplay speak for itself. You don't need to try as much. You're naturally going to be better and react better when you aren't forcing yourself to try and be the best that you can. If that makes sense. It's really tough to explain.

Speaker 1:

But as for a low rated healer, these are the tips that I can give you. These are the only ones. Watch your dps and I want you to end the game with no defensive left. If the dps has a defensive and they haven't used it and you lose the round, but you have no other defensive abilities yet left. Perfect, you did your job. It's just one of them things that DPS will die and he will learn that he needs to block next time or use a Vanish, or use his Enrage Regen or Barkskin. You know these kind of deals.

Speaker 1:

But you're on a Shaman, so I'm going to presume that you play resto sham. You're looking at using your earthen wall totem. You're looking at using your healing tide, your nature's swiftness, for a big heal, your constant riptide. You're looking at your ascendance, your spirit link totem. You want to be making sure that you end the game with none of these. Okay, as for more resto shaman sort of consistent like ideas or tips I don't play a lot of resto sham, but I have a decent idea. What you want to do is always have one sort of healing stream totem down constantly. Okay, you have two charges of this. It's a real shit show. You can put both down, but you want one of them constantly up. Therefore, you've got very good healing output constant, consistently with your riptide healing with your earth living weapon. Uh, with your like healing stream, uh, your earth shields they're all going to be uh, ticking over consistently to heal your target.

Speaker 1:

Now you want to use earth living pretty much off cooldown. You want to Earth Living Riptide. You want to like Earth Living Nature's or you want to Riptide Earth Living Nature's Swiftness Healing Wave to get a big fat heal on the team to top them up, depending on if you're running certain talents. But look, best thing that I can give you is try and enjoy it, okay, I think you'll see a better performance in yourself. And make sure you're ending the game with no defensive cooldowns left. This doesn't mean shit them out completely. This means that try and utilize them when they are going like they are doing burst damage. Okay, and if the DPS still dies but you don't have a cooldown, that's fine, it's, it's one of them things. But make sure you are not ending the solo shuffle with defensive cooldowns is all I can say. The next one is the last one, but it's something that is very important. Um, oh, my god, it's from the same person.

Speaker 1:

Now, this mmr system just needs to be scrapped, and without even reading it, I agree. I agree that it needs to be scrapped and it needs to be talked about more. So play three games, two games. Uh, there's a lever on second or third round on my team. Minus 11 mmr, minus 12 mmr. Okay, that's kind of shit.

Speaker 1:

Um, win 4-2 against a healer that's two mmr lower than me and I finally get to play the full game plus nine mmr. Bro, what? Why am I losing 11 and 12 mmr when there's a lever and we didn't even play half the round just because I had him on my team, and then don't get as much, uh, as from one lever, from fully winning a full game? Okay, you win a full game, yes, but you're not the difference in that game, does it? Does that kind of make sense? It feels like there is a dps that is going to be the difference. Now, if you 6-0 in that game, fine, fine, yeah, get more MMR, but 4-2 against someone who's the exact same MMR, it's not going to go up by much. Okay, it's shit, it really is. And, to be honest, going up by 9 is really awful for a 4-2 win. Okay, I don't know your MMR, what rating you're playing at, but it is awful. The Levers, one one. I really can't do the maths on it, but it's probably because you lost the first round or first two rounds. That's why you lose mmr for that. Um.

Speaker 1:

Now, the problem with the mmr system is that it is outdated, very outdated, and I think that it should go to an like an overwatch, one sort of system where you have zero to five thousand rating and you can play it throughout the season. Okay, this would encourage more people to do some ults. This would encourage people to push their mains as high as they can. This would encourage people of higher rating to actually push during the season rather than just at the end. You know, this would encourage a lot more things, because the MMR system injecting it like injecting some MMR every week doesn't help the system. People don't come back to play because there's like 10 extra MMR in the game. People come back to play at the end for the rewards.

Speaker 1:

And if you put rewards at certain breaking points within the like new system, this overwatch system, and this zero to five thousand, let's say, at 1000 rating, you get, uh, a ensemble. Yeah, you get a like a cosmetic look. At 2k rating, you get a weapon enchant like um transmog. At 3k rating, you get a mount. At 4k rating, you get a glad mount. At 5k rating, you get a rank, one mount or something. You know, just something like this, um, it would incentivize people to actually push these things. It really, really would.

Speaker 1:

Now let's say that you can't ever reach 5K rating. Okay, 5k rating is almost like impossible to achieve because it's based on who you're playing against and their rating and all this stuff. Now, obviously, rank one will still be done by oh, this is the top 0.1 percentage of players, so they still get the mount and stuff. That's fine, but it does need an overhaul. It really really does, because it's so outdated. It is how many years now? 18 years outdated since burning crusade or something. It's ridiculous. So I really do hope that they have a look at it and I do hope that they change it within the next expansion.

Speaker 1:

To be honest, it would be so nice for PvPers to get that breath of fresh air and it would hopefully entice people to actually try it out, because it isn't like, oh my god, it's a slog to sort of push this rating Like why can't they just have a normal sort of system? I don't get it. I really don't. But that is where I will end it for this episode. Thank you all very much for listening. Do check out all of these socials down below constant stuff happening, as well as stuff happening on the Etsy shop multiple things going up there every day, every week. But yeah, thank you all very much for listening and go, valor friend. Goodbye all, thank you.