Pig & Whistle Tales - A World of Warcraft Podcast

The Divide: Classic vs. Retail WoW Debates

• Gabriel • Season 5 • Episode 9

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Contradictory player opinions about Classic and Retail WoW reveal fundamental disconnects between what players claim they want and what they actually enjoy.

• Classic players simultaneously demand "no changes" while requesting quality-of-life improvements
• Season of Discovery controversy highlights player confusion—it maintains Classic gameplay while adding QoL features
• Class balance in Classic is objectively poor with fury warriors dominating, yet purists resist improvements
• Perfect balance is impossible in MMOs while maintaining meaningful class identity
• Returning Retail players complain about complexity without specific examples
• Modern WoW's questing is actually more streamlined than ever with clear guidance
• Gear and crafting systems in Retail are straightforward when explained properly
• The WoW community often makes sweeping generalizations without nuanced understanding of game design

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Speaker 1:

Music. Thank you, hello and welcome to the Pig and Whistle Tales from Azeroth. As always here at the Pig and Whistle Inn in Stormwind, I go through a variety of subjects with regards to World of Warcraft. Grab a bottle or a pint, sit back and enjoy this midweek episode. We're going to be looking at a couple of things on the forums. We're going to be looking at classic, for one, as well as retail. We're going to be giving my opinions on the matters that they are discussing. We're going to be saying, if it's a stupid grey idea, bad idea, everything in between. We're going to be going over a couple of other bits and bobs during this and trying to basically gauge whether or not it's actually a constructive argument that they're giving or not at all. So let's jump into classic first. I'm going to jump into the classic one first, and this one's going to be a few points that have been made. So can we have some sensible changes please? This is for classic, okay. Classic general discussion. This isn't Season of Discovery. This isn't anything like that. This is from what I'm reading classic anniversary and classic era okay, give Paladin Crusader Strike. Make Summoning Stones work. Make soul gems stack. You know stuff like that. Okay.

Speaker 1:

So this classic community need to understand, or figure out if they really don't want any changes or if they want changes, okay. They need to figure that out, because this person's saying that they want some changes, okay, others will say, no, we don't want any of this. And so who's right here? Who's right, who's wrong? If blizzard do one thing, they're going to get uh annoyed by other people or they're going to annoy other people by doing this. But the biggest thing I wanted to discuss here is this comment on it um, this person puts uh, sod is too many changes for you. Question mark, which is a fair point, because if you look at the points that he's made, give paladins crusader strike they do in season of discovery. Make summoning stones work well, they don't really, uh, in season of discovery, but warlocks can make a summoning stone that other people can utilize. So you've got that change there. And soul gems stack. They don't have that in sod, okay, but soul stones are a lot more useful in season of discovery, okay.

Speaker 1:

Um, so this person asks is season of discovery, sod too much changes for you? And this is the reply from someone I leveled to level 12 and abandoned it. Absolutely disgusting what they did to classic. It really wasn't classic though. It's its own sort of spin-off of classic. It's retail all over again. Just isn't retail, though I'm happy for those who liked it, of course, but that's not for me. And just play retail at that point, oh my god. Okay, the difference between retail and season of discovery is like night and day. Okay, season of discovery is more classic than it is retail. People need to understand this Because in Season of Discovery you are still only pressing one to two abilities in a raiding environment.

Speaker 1:

Season of Discovery is more quality of life stuff to classic With the abilities. They help your rotations and stuff like that. But you are ultimately at the end of the day, when you're raiding, when you're doing dungeons, pressing one to two abilities. Okay, it's that simple. With boomy you're pressing like star surge into your uh, wrath and star fires. You know something like that. With warriors, you're pressing pretty much the exact same thing, except you get some execute procs or something. With mage, you're pressing basically fireball or frost fireball, bale fireball, you know these sort of things. So it's still a one button rotation. So it's more classic than it is retail.

Speaker 1:

But sure, there are two categories of changes to the classic that I could envision okay gameplay gameplay changes add new abilities that change damage, modifiers and so on. In the end that I could envision Okay, gameplay changes Add new abilities, change damage modifiers and so on. In the end, change balance. While I'm not against this per se, I don't trust Blizzard to execute it well. Classic is good enough, as it is Not perfect, but it is what it is Okay. If they were to balance Classic, they would do a better job than how classic is released.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, rep paladins, fucking garbage in radio. Anything that isn't a fury warrior in raiding, you're useless, okay. This is why the best guilds take 35 warriors and probably one of each healer or something, or it's probably like 30 warriors and then like a mage or a couple mages, and then you know healers of different specs. You get a druid for the druid buff, priest for priest, buff, etc. Etc. You know there is a reason that people take warriors when speed running classic raids because they're a lot better. So balancing is nowhere near good enough in classic.

Speaker 1:

If you're looking to do content, okay, um, secondly, they would do it better. Again, it's an mmo. You would never be able to balance a mmo. It's impossible. It's impossible in every single mmo try, try and balance. That it's ridiculous, especially if you want class identity. Okay, class identity is what's needed in an mmo for the classes to actually feel good and for other people to pick it up and be like I enjoy playing warrior because I want to get in there, hit stuff with big axes. I prefer playing a mage because I like to, you know, fire some frost bolts or fireballs and stuff like that at my target. And all of these classes need to feel unique.

Speaker 1:

But they, if you were to balance the game and be like OK, mages have a blink, they have something that can TP them 15 yards, yeah. So what can warriors do? Let's give warriors a blink, you know, or a leap. It just takes them 15 yards, yeah, heroic leap. Instead of you targeting where you go, it's an immediate 15 yards, you just leap 15 yards ahead, kind of deal. Yeah, it's a blink, pseudo blink.

Speaker 1:

Now, all of this is going to be very generic and it's going to be like oh well, since warriors and mages have a blink, now we should give druids a blink. We should give rogues a blink, you know all of this sort of stuff, and it's like, well, where's the class diversity in that? That's just not fun. This is why MMOs are a ball lake to balance, because you obviously have such a wide variety of skills or abilities that you can use that you cannot balance everything around the same abilities because not everyone has them. Um, yeah, and classic is the furthest part from being balanced. It's the worst version of world of warcraft to be balanced ever. Okay, that's just a fact. It really is just a factual statement that, uh, all gameplay changes Blizzard did were utter failures.

Speaker 1:

Layers, double spec, chrono booms are a few that come to mind. Okay, so layers literally are needed at the start of releases of games, at the start or the release of the 2019 classic version. I genuinely think the game and the servers would have been unplayable without layers. Okay, they just would have been unplayable. No one would have enjoyed it and it would have lost a lot of people very quickly because it's like oh well, I can't do anything, there's no mobs, I'm lagging my absolute like shit out, like my tits off here and I just can't play, so I'm not going to bother playing, kind of deal. Layers are there to help people get a better performance when the game first released again now I would admit I think layers need to be decreased when the game is being played. But again, this can cause server lag. This can cause just personal lag, stuff like that zone lag.

Speaker 1:

As for double spec, yeah, I think you could have left that out of Classic. I would have loved this when I was actively playing Classic, to be honest with you, because it would have been nice to have that second specialization for PvP and raiding. But you know it is what it is. Uh, chrono booms doesn't really bother me. I like that people. The chrono boom shouldn't bother people because they are used for people who want to hold on to world buffs and really try and pass or whatever. Fair enough, but honestly, it isn't a bother. It isn't something that has to worry you, because what you have to do is you have to go to chromie at chillwind camp or anderhall, sorry and you have to buy them off of her, and then you have to make sure that obviously you're getting your world buffs, storing them and then reusing them, etc. It's a lot of hassle and you don't have to do it. If you don't want to straight up, you don't have to. So it's really not a bother at all for most people. Um, so no hope for them to improve gameplay. Therefore, I just wish they don't touch gameplay at all.

Speaker 1:

Ui changes replace auction house with new generation. Add target npc health display modern raid frames. Show incoming heals. Improve map and npc tracking. Add map markers, add ground markers. Add spell overlays for some class buffs. Those changes are present in retail wow for years, and I think they would be good for so-called classic plus.

Speaker 1:

So is this guy not wanting anything for classic plus or classic, because that's a lot of changes? Um, hell, even achievements carefully reworked to keep classic style. No kissing squirrels, please. What the fuck is this guy thinking of? What kind of achievement is he doing? Um, look, class achievements in classic is fine, but again, what is it going to be? Kill ragnaros, yay. What is it going to be? Kill emperor therazane cool. Like it's just going to be kill dungeon bosses, and then that's it, and obviously the earn reputation like stuff. It's. It's going to be ridiculous.

Speaker 1:

This one is crazy, though, and transmorphic. Transmogrification would actually improve the game for me by adding new objectives to achieve. Are you kidding? That is such a big gameplay change. Your character in classic is meant to look stupid. Okay, that's the whole feel of the character. That's what gives it it's. Oh, that's actually quite a cool look kind of deal. You know you can make it work. You're a bit rugged and all of that. Having the transmog graphic, like the transmog stuff, is just ridiculous. Um, also, some boss fights would benefit from enhanced ui. For example, gideon debuff should be more visible to a player than some tiny debuff in the corner. Okay, you can change the scale of your UI. You need to know that. All right, it is in the options. You can change the scale of your UI. They added looking for group tool and I think it fits Classic very well. That's an example of welcome UI improvement. The core gameplay stays the same, but interface to the gameplay is improved. That's very nice.

Speaker 1:

I have seen so many people complain that they should not have added this back in 2019 because it ruined classic. Okay, I've seen so many people say, oh, but it ruins classic, it ruins the immersion, it ruins, you know, the um, what is it not? The audience, the interact, interactions with everyone, the like classic spirit and all of that, and it's like, well, what do you want then? Do you want it or not? Because this person's saying that it's a great gameplay aspect and I personally think it's a very good one as well.

Speaker 1:

Um, I think that it allows you to still message people and be like, oh, do you need a hunter, do you need this? And they'll be like, yeah, sure, sure, sure and all of that stuff, and it shows that you're interested in doing a dungeon and people can look through it. They're not having to just spam looking for group with, oh my god, looking for more mariden, uh, one dps, one hill, need like, need to like, prefer druid or something. You know all of that shit. Um, look, people need to figure this out, okay, because literally the next comment on this is yuck, no, thanks, it's enough. We've got flight path markers. You're kidding, right, you, you are absolutely kidding. We have got flight path markers and those good-for-nothing carrots in the minimap C-A-R-E, t-s. I have no idea. I have no idea.

Speaker 1:

Um, yeah, it's absolutely ridiculous, because you've got people who are literally just saying, oh my God, this shouldn't be in Classic. And he does say Classic Plus. I will give him that he does say Classic Plus, but it seems like he is trying to advocate this to be in Classic Era as well. Before that, he needs to state that this is for Classic Era or Plus. Okay, because it is quite unclear at points, but people need to.

Speaker 1:

The whole classic community is like, oh no, we shouldn't have any changes. And you get people who are like, oh no, I think a few ui changes would be good. And then, as soon as these ui changes come in, it's very much oh my god, it's basically retail. What the fuck are they doing to my World of Warcraft? And it's like, oh yeah, okay, whatever, I'm over it. Yeah, whatever, mate, um, it's absolutely ludicrous. It just is. It really really is. And this leads me to the next one is the other side, on retail, because people in retail do this as well. What, what's going on? Who is this game for? Why is it so over-designed? I don't know how to start this.

Speaker 1:

I'm going to type into the abyss and just give my thoughts on where retail has ended up. I haven't played it properly since the start of Shadowlands. Okay, you haven't played since the start of Shadowlands, so you have missed two expansions, pretty much because Shadowlands came out in 2019 as well, I believe. I think it was late 2019, so, or 2020, it might have been 2020, I think is more likely. So you have not played for four years. We'll say, we'll say four years. So let's see, I've done my fair share of mythic raiding and mythic plus, but admittedly, my peak was around tumor sargeras in legion.

Speaker 1:

I had a good time. Tumor sargeras is a long time now. That is seven years, nearly. That's crazy. Um, however, I just logged into retail to pick up some built-up trade attendees and just wanted to share my thoughts as to on as an on again, off again, returning player.

Speaker 1:

My insight into how a lot of things work nowadays, nowadays, is limited. I'll keep it brief. Why is there so much stuff Tokens, crafting materials, loot for all kinds of systems within systems within systems, crafting materials, loot for all kinds systems within systems within systems? Honestly, I've completed all the zone quests when the war within, when war within, when it first released, and it's enough to put any new or returning player off to the get off the game. Why, though, bombarded with so much random rubbish at every avenue that you just quit there and then, because it's too much, it's just overwhelming. What is overwhelming? What is overwhelming when you're completing zone quests? You're doing the quests, you're going oh okay, this tells me to go here, this quest. It's literally giving you breadcrumbs to get to the next quest and you're saying it's overwhelming. It's, it's absolutely ridiculous.

Speaker 1:

Um, where was I? I had a glance today and couldn't tell you what a single one of the consumable tokens, that's, currencies in my bag or character panel tabs, do, or where the vendors are. You can defeat a random mob in the world and loot an electric whispered giblet of a high street fashion dance troupe and it all. It means nothing to anyone. There's so much stuff in this game, my god. Okay, he's, he's not proving any point. Okay, there's so much stuff in this game. Okay, it's so overwhelming. Like this will get people to just stop playing the game. What will you need to make a point? You have made no point. Okay, you're just saying oh, it's so overwhelming. What is describe? What is overwhelming? It's ridiculous.

Speaker 1:

I also did a bit of mythic plus at the start of war with vin and, to be honest, I can't really work out what's going on on my screen anymore. There's so many animations, graphics, mob spamming, one-shot abilities, un, unintuitive mechanics from bosses, green attacks with a green skybox with a green floor, etc. Etc. This game is just off-putting to anybody who doesn't want to sweat. Oh, my god, you were literally so.

Speaker 1:

You have stated that you did mythic raiding back in legion and yet, like you're worried that it's too much of a sweat doing mythic plus, whereas mythic plus is more friendly than mythic raiding and the thing is like, wow, mechanics have always gradually gotten more and more predictable, like, oh my god, this guy's doing a slam, don't stand in the swirly thing, move out of this, move into that. You know it's these kind of things. The mechanics are staying the same, it's just the swirly on the floor looks different. And the thing is, in this expansion they've actually changed the look of most of these raid encounters and the raid abilities to make it a bit more user-friendly to see these abilities happening and what you should or shouldn't be standing in that. They've made it a bit easier in that regard and they are continuing to do so in the next patch as well. So they are addressing this, which is very good, but at the same time, he's not really stated anything. He just simply hasn't stated anything.

Speaker 1:

In my honest opinion, with all of this, all he said is something about a dance troupe like, and that's clearly just gibberish. It is just gibberish. Um, I know the problems are a lot deeper if you're actually playing the game, and this is all very shallow. I could go on, but I won't. I haven't provided much detail here. I know specific situations, so this just seems like nonsense. I've just felt this way about retail for a really long time. I'd love to play it, but the game is a mess. They're designing a game with so much content there's something for everyone, but then it feels like it's for nobody. What, how? How does that make sense? Also, you can't have a say in this. Really, I've just felt this way about retail for a very, really long time.

Speaker 1:

You're a returning player from shadowlands. You haven't played the game for five years, nearly okay. When you stopped doing your mythic raiding and mythic plus in legion, you still had a whole expansion after that before, like shadowlands, which was battle for azeroth, because battle for azeroth came after legion. So, like what, what was it in battle for azeroth then? Was it too much for you? Is that why you stopped? Did you stop because there was too much of mythic plus happening or mythic raiding happening in battle for azeroth? No, shadowlands. Shadowlands was a shit expansion. It was shit gear wise it really was, and it's when all of these new implementations for gearing came out, and it always will happen.

Speaker 1:

When a new system comes out in the game, it usually doesn't hit the ground running. It really, really doesn't. The only ones that do are kind of the artifact weapons from Legion, but this is because they are insanely good. Artifacts from lore purposes Okay, death Knights had remnants of Frostmourne, mages had Ebonchill like a literal guardian's weapon. You had a Lunath, you've had a fellow Malorn, you've had many different weapons over the years of wow storytelling to look at and be like, oh my god, that's so cool that my character has this. Um, but stuff like the gear where you upgrade it using certain currencies, that started in shadowlands and it wasn't very good. Okay, there was a lot of improvement needed and they've been doing that throughout the expansions, which is good.

Speaker 1:

A lot of people are just going to say play classic or some other response, and that's fair, I guess, but I do miss some of the retail elements. It's just like everyone's gotten a bit out of hand. Anyway, maybe I break through the barriers come next expansion. Also, dell should have just been easy solo content, nothing more Difficulty should be kept to group content, unless they want to do a new Mage Tower or something that was great.

Speaker 1:

Okay, delves are solo content. Okay, you are able to do a Delve on any difficulty. Solo the higher Delve you do do, though, will push you to your maximum, okay, so you can walk into a delve at a plus eight and just absolutely breeze through it. You can walk into it at a tier 12, and you will struggle a lot more with it because it's meant to be a mythic plus, but for solo content, so you can go as high as you really want. If you want to really stress yourself out and push yourself, you go for that tier 12. If you want to chill, you go for a tier 8 or a tier 5 or a tier 2, however comfortable you feel. Delves are solo content. Okay, it's ridiculous. This entire post has stated nothing.

Speaker 1:

Okay, firstly, yes, when people look at it, the gearing system might be a bit complex, but I can sum it up relatively quickly. Now for pve, you get your gear. Doing mythics gives you currency, gives you valor stones, and it gives you a crest. The crests depend on the highest level, uh, or the level of the dungeon you did. You use these to upgrade your gear. It's that simple. That's the very bare bones of it. Okay, now, if you want to craft a piece of gear, you simply buy the mats that you need and you put it up for a commission, this commission people will be like, oh OK, I'll take that on, they will craft it and you will get it back in the mail. It's that simple. Ok, you just make sure that you have all the crafting materials that you want so that they can craft it for you. That simple, that easy. I promise it's not that difficult once you just take it step by step.

Speaker 1:

But because this guy sees 20 animations on the floor and the thing is, it's not like there's a shit ton happening. There's a shit ton happening. If there is something you are not meant to stand in, you can easily see that it is a giant blue circle not to stand in. Okay, it's that simple. It's not difficult. It's not rocket science. Stop standing in the shit on the floor. It's that easy.

Speaker 1:

But this guy provided no info. Pretty much his entire point is invalid because there needs to be specifications on what he's actually trying to talk about. He can't just say it's so complicated when he's talking about questing through the zones and the quest, literally just babies, like they just walk you through the entire campaign. You can just do one quest and it will take you through the entirety of the campaign without ever having to like find your way to the next quest. It's that simple. Okay, it really really is. Look, that is where I'm gonna end it for today. I'm actually getting quite annoyed at this guy's like post. I don't know why, but that is where I'm gonna end it for today. Thank you all very much for listening. Do check out all of the socials down below. Constant stuff happening over there, as well as the Etsy shop. Multiple things up there constantly. But thank you all very much once again and go eval a friend. Goodbye all, thank you.